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Re: passing sacred cow (none / 0)

The reason this cow is sacred to so many of us is because its so important.

My bottom line is that nuclear is a problematic diversion from a move to renewables that will do little to solve the problems of global warming or energy geopolitics and will create substantial new multigenerational problems.

1) False Choice: The choice between nuclear dangers and dead soldiers is a false choice. I have spelled out three specific renewable options that are as technologically viable as nuclear. All that is needed is for them to be incentivized by the government in order to overcome the entropy of existing energy interests. With the current administration, that is unrealistic, but that doesn't mean it's a reason for Progressives to cave on this issue.

2) Nuclear Can't Replace Oil: Since most of our oil consumption is devoted to transportation, no amount of nuclear power will allow us to wean ourselves from Middle East oil. Transportation from nuclear generated electricity requires quantum leaps in battery or fuel cell technology...and neither will be available anytime soon without significant government intervention - again, unrealistic with this administration.

3) Generator Safety: The key to the argument over improved safety is pebble-bed reactors. As was pointed out by the the NIRS, the claim of a fail-safe technology is overstated. While the risk of core-meltdown is eliminated (because there is no core), there is still a risk of radiation release. There is no risk-free energy technology and I submit that the known risks of fossil fuels (while transitioning to renewables) are far outweighed by the catastrophic potential risks associated with nuclear. My litmus test is still: Would you accept one of these things next door to your home? My answer is "no".

4) Fuel Safety: The fuel you put in your "safe" generator has to come from somewhere. Uranium fuel is dirty to mine and refine. The plant may be comparatively safe, but the danger to miners and communities surrounding mines and processing facilities is substantial and well documented. Since a large percentage of the known uranium deposits are in third-world countries, the political dangers to the citizens of those countries and our soldiers is still significant.

5) Waste Safety: Nuclear waste is the most serious issue with nuclear power. Although we'd like to think you can just stuff it back in the ground and forget about it, it's toxicity and longevity mean that stuffing it in the ground only passes on a significant menace for millenia.

by ProgressiveChristian on Mon Apr 11, 2005 at 02:27:45 PM EST
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Re: passing sacred cow (none / 0)

That litmus test (nimby) is pretty meaningless. On the whole, I just fail to see why Nuclear is any less dangerous than the other energy sources. Radiation sounds scarier I guess, than greenhouse or smog.
by Jerome Armstrong on Mon Apr 11, 2005 at 03:26:36 PM EST
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Re: passing sacred cow (none / 0)

I assume you mean "why nuclear is any MORE dangerous..." Admittedly, this is a hard one to defend with an empirical argument. I've been able to live pretty well with CO2 and smog. But the prospect of dying of cancer from radiation, radiation sickness (an especially miserable way to go) or to have to raise a child deformed or disabled because of radiation exposure is, personally, more frightening.

There is also no worst-case scenario at a coal-fired plant that is even close to the worst-case scenario (however remote) at a light-water nuclear plant. Safe nuclear power depends on human operators, owners and engineers. And any system that relies on humans in inherently unreliable.

Again, I think it's a false choice between smog and nuclear. The major component of smog is automotive emissions - which will not be affected by nuclear energy used to supply the power grid. The emissions from coal-fired plants can be cleaned up considerably with existing technology, if only the Federal government would enforce reasonable regulations.

CO2 is a legitimate point. But if you buy the argument that global warming is irreversible, it assumes less importance relative to the other safety and environmental concerns associated with nuclear.

And I would suggest that my "backyard" argument is not NIMBY since I don't want one in anyone's backyard.

by ProgressiveChristian on Mon Apr 11, 2005 at 04:25:07 PM EST
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"radiation sounds scarier". JA (none / 0)

I've personally traveled to Belarus and seen firsthand the effects of the Chernobyl disaster on the children there (where 2/3s of the rad cloud went) and in the Ukraine.  The deadly radiation is effecting thousands today and its not that it just "sounds scarier", nuclear power is deadlier and the effects of a spill will be with us for thousands of years!  Don't talk like that idiot NeoFascist Kristol.
Just another Jesus followin' Green for Constitutional Democracy. :-)
dailyJam.blogspot.com
by JamBoi on Mon Apr 11, 2005 at 10:10:03 PM EST
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Re: "radiation sounds scarier". JA (none / 0)

YEa, but as the poster points out, the reality of nowadays technology is hardly Chernobyl-like.
by Jerome Armstrong on Tue Apr 12, 2005 at 12:06:10 AM EST
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In fairness (none / 0)

1. Of course we're not the Soviet Union.  By the mid-80s, Soviet technology was so ass-backwards that they were a pariah nation in many regards.  

The Soviets held a genuine disdain for the environment, and largely saw no wrong in killing or mutating a few hundred thousand people.  Hell, that was progress versus what was done under Stalin!

  1. Nothing changes the fact that nuclear power always carries with a base risk of catastrophic failure.  Whether or not we are the Soviets, our technology only shields us from so much.

  2. Large-scale development, especially rapid development, inherently carries with it an increased risk, due the pace of development, and the spread of qualified people across more projects.

Can these things be controlled? To a limit, yes.  But no one can ever rule out the possibility than an American reactor could face a catastrohpic failure.
by jcjcjc on Tue Apr 12, 2005 at 02:35:44 AM EST
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Re: "radiation sounds scarier". JA (none / 0)

You're kidding yourself JA.  Very little has changed. Nuclear radiation is as dangerous as it ever was.  Renewables are the future for an energy independent and clean America, not toxic radioactive waste.
Just another Jesus followin' Green for Constitutional Democracy. :-)
dailyJam.blogspot.com
by JamBoi on Tue Apr 12, 2005 at 04:36:40 AM EST
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Re: passing sacred cow (none / 0)

We still don't know what to do with nuclear waste, beside store it in big pools.

Clean energy like wind and solar power is an untapped resource that creates jobs without the pollution.  Why not use it?

by Steve P on Wed Apr 13, 2005 at 09:53:29 AM EST
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